tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post2802828093879104743..comments2023-09-05T20:54:42.242-04:00Comments on A Latter-day Voice: Can we have the priesthood without the church?Paulhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11294214866282354575noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-66041878318125225142011-12-05T00:38:38.564-05:002011-12-05T00:38:38.564-05:00Paul: I had the privilege of ordaining a young ma...Paul: I had the privilege of ordaining a young man to the office of Elder today, and it gave me pause to think again about what you are discussing here. God has said "My house is a house of order". Imagine the chaos if there was no structure and system behind priesthood ordinations. That right there is reason enough to have a church to administer the priesthood. Can you imagine if we just ran around and ordained people because we felt it was the thing to do? My guess is that there will always be a system of "order", even when the church as we know it morphs into its next incarnation.Middle-aged Mormon Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06250594175961381412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-65585974544276108562011-12-04T13:09:42.465-05:002011-12-04T13:09:42.465-05:00Michael,
I should also add that I've also re...Michael,<br /> <br />I should also add that I've also read Daymon Smith's series at By Common Consent. I recommend it to others as fascinating reading. (I have not read his disseration, however.)<br /><br />That said, the tone of the OP and my "About Me" section at the upper right hand corner of this blog should make clear where I've come out.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294214866282354575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-25726124745381065042011-12-04T02:45:15.115-05:002011-12-04T02:45:15.115-05:00Paul: Kudos for taking this on and for your clear...Paul: Kudos for taking this on and for your clear explanation. I agree that the ordinances of salvation - and thusly salvation itself - cannot exist at this current time without the priesthood as currently administered through the church.Middle-aged Mormon Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06250594175961381412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-44199167540932870102011-12-03T19:22:09.836-05:002011-12-03T19:22:09.836-05:00The scriptures cited in the OP make clear that in ...The scriptures cited in the OP make clear that in our dispensation, priesthood is exercised within the structure of the church -- that is, ordinations, baptism, confirmation and temple ordinances.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294214866282354575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-19326521083015225882011-12-03T18:24:44.956-05:002011-12-03T18:24:44.956-05:00Paul,
You keep mentioning that the priesthood mu...Paul, <br /><br />You keep mentioning that the priesthood must be exercised within the confines of the church but you are not providingvany scriptural references for this persistence.<br /><br />Remember that this issue was fought extensively in the early 1900s in conjunction with suspension of polygamy due to Edmunds Tucker. In fact, an Apostle was excommunicated over it. After the polygamy issue (as well as the unrelated revolt by the Mexican Saints) the Brethren starting conflating the church with the priesthood in conference talks and speeches. Presidents Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant were the main forces behind this emphasis. However, there is little scriptural support for it. The church leaders in the pre-manifesto period did not conflate the two in the same manner.<br /><br />Brother Daymon Smith has provided an incredible history of this issue which eventually resulted in church-wide correlation. It is a fascinating read.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-17830056632119909582011-12-03T16:33:38.449-05:002011-12-03T16:33:38.449-05:00ji, I agree with you. Theoretically you could be ...ji, I agree with you. Theoretically you could be like Alma the elder in the Book of Mormon who held priesthood even though he was not faithful to it for a time.<br /><br />But in the revealed canon, our use of priesthood for saving ordinances (and that is its purpose according to Section 84) is to be within the church.<br /><br />Further, our righteous exercise of priesthood has certain limits, as outlined in section 121.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294214866282354575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-14992701466029656792011-12-03T16:03:24.357-05:002011-12-03T16:03:24.357-05:00I like the Clark quote. Here's how I see it -...I like the Clark quote. Here's how I see it -- even if I move far away from the organized Church, I take my priesthood with me. The organized Church could perish, but I would still have my priesthood. My prieshood exists independent of the Church organization.<br /><br />The Church, however, is the priesthood organized. Aaronic Priesthood holders are organized into quorums in wards under the direction of the bishop, and Melchizedek Priesthood holders are prganized into quorums in stakes under the direction of the stake president.<br /><br />This framework works fo rme.jinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-60722189363023022822011-12-02T12:36:30.239-05:002011-12-02T12:36:30.239-05:00Thanks for these comments.
Michael, I agree: the ...Thanks for these comments.<br /><br />Michael, I agree: the priesthood is everlasting; the church is for our dispensation. In that way, the church is temporal and the priesthood is not.<br /><br />But for us in our day, it seems the two are linked.<br /><br />Anon (2), I think generally you are correct: the church orgainization in place today is for this dispensation. We have certainly been taught that there will not exist the same organization of the church in the Celestial Kingdom, but that the family structure will be the key organization there.<br />Anon (1) -- thanks for that great quotation from President Clark. A great addition to the discussion.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294214866282354575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-31164442506997772932011-12-02T11:21:36.278-05:002011-12-02T11:21:36.278-05:00In the New Testament, Christ often referred to &qu...In the New Testament, Christ often referred to "the kingdom of God" as opposed to "the church of God." I have a feeling that once the final trump sounds, the name and organizational makeup of the church will have very little use. I agree they are woven together tightly for now. It seems like one of the older church handbooks used to define the church as God's government on earth. I assume once the earth is celestialized, the "church" will no longer be of any use, and the priesthood is what will keep everything in place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-80108478870320951052011-12-01T21:42:49.977-05:002011-12-01T21:42:49.977-05:00"The priesthood is essential to the church, b..."The priesthood is essential to the church, but the church is not essential to the priesthood. " (J. Rueben Clark, Conference Report, March, 1936, p. 134)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8266009681076554415.post-30065349336238795222011-12-01T21:18:04.449-05:002011-12-01T21:18:04.449-05:00Paul,
Thank you for this post. It explains your p...Paul,<br /><br />Thank you for this post. It explains your previous post very well. I accept the verses you provided as linking the restored gospel, priesthood authority, and the church together. I also understand how you have connected them together. I am not yet certain if I agree with your interpretation. You mention the church as encompassing the gospel and priesthood. I would argue it is the opposite way around.<br /><br />I still interpret the scriptures as drawing a firm line line between the everlasting priesthood and the temporal nature of the church.<br /><br />But I appreciate the good discussion we are having on this subject.Michaelnoreply@blogger.com